effort to erase the history of the country so it's contemporary consequences cannot be addressed, or named. there is no remedy for something that really wasn't that much of a problem, and in that case, it was a long time ago. i'm talking about my great great-grandmother, it was not that long ago. so finally -- i mean, i'm satisfied that people will now see this for what it is. i hope that we take the lesson, that there is no appeasing this, there is no pivoting, there is no running away. this is what the gop is going to run on, and unless we learn how to fight this on its own terms, we are going to see more and more of this desantis nonsense. which means people say, not saying something isn't crt or don't worry about it, understanding that this is what they are saying crt is, now go glanced it. go and say why you can't censor history and keep it away from our children. discomfort, as we say in our banned book club, it's not always a don't read something

alert. >> it never is. that's why we've had freedom to learn this part of our campaigns, we have critical race theory summer schools, starting away from today. if folks want to learn more and learn how to fight, this is where you have to come and do it. >> thank you so much for everything that you've done for us, for me, and for the amount i've learned from you and from our viewers. >> it's been a pleasure. >> kimberly crenshaw's executive director of the african american policy farm. she is the author of the new an important book, say her name. black women stories of police violence and public silence. still ahead, hints of donald trump's next plan to further dismantle democracy. we have another jam-packed velshi and starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ good morning. it is sunday, july the 23rd. i'm ali velshi. the eruption of violence at the capitol on january the 6th as the darkest manifestation of donald trump's disregard for democracy. even long before, that there were plenty of signs that the

now twice impeached, twice indicted, destroys former president had a disregard for democracy. back in 2016, he openly campaign and promoted imprisoning hillary clinton, his main political opponent. he created a bogeyman of the americans who work a civil students in the various agencies that make up the federal government. the swamp, and his parlance. or, the deep state. he often praising the dunes of autocratic leaders like vladimir putin, kim jong-un, while undermining america's relationship with some of its closest allies. trump's autocratic tendencies happened subsided and the year since he left office and disgrace in the wake of the insurrection. in fact, it's only gotten worse. especially now that he's facing multiple criminal prosecutions. for months now, he's been attacking the integrity of federal law enforcement, and the prosecutors working the cases against him, thereby undermining the institutions that are trying to hold him to account. donald trump has repeatedly accused president biden of weaponizing the federal government against him.

while in the same breath, also promising that if he were to win back the presidency, he'll weaponize the federal government himself in order to prosecute biden for unspecified crimes. trump asserts his innocence and all of the things for which he stands accused, alleging that the presidential records act allowed him to hoard government records and his bathroom, and he could see classify records by, quote, thinking about it. he has previously claimed that article two of the constitution gave him, quote, the right to do whatever i want, as president. when trump was essentially referencing there is something called the unitarian executive theory. illegal theory built on the belief that the president has complete control of the executive branch and rejects the concept of checks and balances between the free branches of government. now, as he campaigns for and makes another bid to return to the white house, trump wants to test that theory and turn it into a reality. according to a recent new york times report, quote, donald j trump and his allies are planning a sweeping expansion of presidential power over the

machinery of government and voters returning to the white house in 2025. reshaping the structure of the executive branch to concentrate far greater authority directly in his hands, and quote. the plan, dubbed product 2025, is an effort to centralize more power around the president, and stack the administration with loyalists. that would involve bringing independent agencies like the fcc, the ftc, under the control of the executive branch, eliminating employment productions for civil servants in order to make it easier to fire people and presumably replace them with staff handpicked by the president and his allies. they also plan to revive the active impounding funds, meaning the president could refuse to spend money for programs as appropriated by congress. that's a practice that has been banned since the nixon administration, by the way. the goal is to significantly alter the balance of power in the federal government in favor of the executive branch. this would fundamentally alter

our democracy. they shouldn't come as a surprise because donald trump's been saying the quiet part out loud for some time. he explains that he is ungovernable, that he can do no wrong. he should not be held to account. joining me now is lawyer in legal scholar -- us constitutional law center and a partner at the law firm. also with us, and opinion writer for the washington post, nbc political -- and the author of how women save democracy from donald trump. good morning to both of you. thank you for being with us. interesting point, jennifer, that i just want to underscore. it is not necessarily, i don't know enough to know whether donald trump thinks that he's criminal, or thinks he's done things that are wrong. it is clear that his legal philosophy, whether he read the sun's, owner someone told him about it, is that he is not to be held to account by the forces of justice in this country. >> yes, you can think of it as a political philosophy, or you

can think of it as a mental problem. namely, women like nick narcissism. he does not believe that he is responsible to anyone. he can do no wrong. there is another term for what he's doing. this massive concentration and the executive. the independent judiciary attack on outsiders, or minority. elevation of state propaganda. that word is fascism. we've seen this with victor or one, a great hero of the right now. we saw this with bolsonaro in brazil. we saw this in the 20th century, fascist dictators and europe. it is not something that we can simply brush aside as simply talk. this is driven not only by his personal pathologies, but by the history of fascism and the sort of movement that makes him into a cult leader. >> matthew, let's go back. there has been a movement for the last several presidents, to get a little bit more presidential authority, right?

take a little more under the executive branch. generally speaking, democrats or republicans don't mind when it's your guy doing it. you think it's okay, you certainly don't want the other guys president, the other peoples president taking more presidential power. we've done the same where people have not come out and yelled when the rift talks, hold, and that's not the way this was designed. you're not supposed to have these powers. to what degree is this a continuation of things that have already been, done or is this a great leap forward for what donald trump is supposedly planning to do for the next time around? >> it's a great leap forward for two reasons. versus, as you say, it is true that both republican and democratic presidents over the past several decades have concentrated power on the white house. this is true of both parties, and they've done this by implementable steps. what president trump has promised to do in a second term is categorically different. he seeking to recategorize tens of thousands of government employees, his political

appointees, so he can replace law-abiding personnel with loyalists. personalist power. he's threatening to use the levers of the law enforcement agencies like the department of justice and the fbi, to investigate prosecutors in his opponents. that is something that no republican, and no democrat has ever threatened to do. the danger of the second trump administration is that the malevolence that was tempered by incompetence that we saw it first, that we saw in the first former trump presidency, will be on tempered in his second administration. >> the malevolence tempered by and confidence. beyond that, jennifer, apparently this isn't just a trump thing. according to the new york times, project 2025 is saying that they're going to present and help implement this expansion of executive authority with whomever ones the republican nomination next year. -- now this is sort of, this is

that weird line that's burrowed between trump and his acolytes, and the republican party. i guess you've made the argument that line is gone. >> yes. i think that what we're seeing here is, as we've been talking about, there is a history here. the notion of a unitarian executive, extreme powers in the presidency, particularly having to do with national security. this was elevated during the second bush administration. that was the dick cheney fewer things, that was the george w. bush mentality. so i think what we're seeing is that even if donald trump goes by the wayside, these ideas, and this notion of an autocratic leader with supreme power, who's going to run roughshod over the executive branch, roughshod over independents agencies, roughshod over individual liberties, and is going to have a passive judiciary. it's something we should be

very much aware of. just as other leaders, like orban, have made moves to limit to the independent to the judiciary, by stacking the judiciary with people who do not have a judicial temperament, but a partisan temperament, would help him as we saw with aileen cannon in the document case and mar-a-lago. he is setting himself up, and his future acolytes, for a symbiotic relationship with an out of control judicial branch. that is a dangerous as well, that he is in the process of doing this, destroying an independent judiciary. this is a check on both political branches as well as state governments that would run roughshod over our civil liberties. >> an important point, he's called a future judge who we didn't, like he says there someone who hates america. matthew, i want to ask you about the snow that you sent to us and what you said that part of this project 2025 ensures

the political appointees are true trump loyalist. not just establishment republicans or conservatives. this would involve dramatically expanding the number of civil servants who counters political appointees. a point you made a couple of responses ago. it's a reshaping, and for those of us who don't believe that the civil service is the deep state, or the swamp that we then think it's made up of hardworking people who have given their lives to work for the government, probably for less money than they would make in the private sector, this is the full politicization of the sort of thing that we're not used to in the western democratic world. >> that's correct. the way that the federal government has been structured since the new deal creates agencies that exercise independent and expert to pass regulation, regulate the economy, the environment in ways that reflect the facts on the ground, the policies that congress has enacted. this replaces those hardworking and law-abiding agency personnel with loyalists who

would eviscerate that system. it would centralize power entirely in the white house. instead of exercising independent policy judgment on the basis of the expertise, they would be following the whims of whoever happens to be sitting in the oval office. this completely undermines the structure that we have established through experience, and through law, over the last hundred years. this is enabled us to have a stable federal government that regulates wisely. not always perfectly, but wisely, and within the limits of law. those guardrails would be completely gone. >> this is not an argument that is that all works perfectly in the government, or the civil service. this is an argument that it shouldn't be politicized. thanks to both of you for giving us such clarity on this. matthew seligman is a legal scholar and follow the stand for constitutional law center. jennifer reuben's opinion writer for the washington post in an msnbc political analyst, author of resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump. still ahead, the stakes are incredibly high when it comes to an impending strike for u.p.s. workers. for u.p.s., for its workers, for you, and for the economy.

i will be speaking with the head of the international brotherhood of teamster, sean o'brien, coming up. plus, trump's legal woes or a tangled web with lots of spiders. i will be named me the names that you don't know but need to. massive protests continue in israel ahead of a key vote that could change their government. this is velshi. this is velshi you know, people always ask me, "kevin, what does being the ceo of cashbacking mean to you?" it means cashbacking every opportunity. did you cashback on this? like i wouldn't cashback? cashbacking by the basket, i see you. ugh. i dreamt you didn't cashback this flight. oh good. if you're buying it, flying it, or wining n' dining it, then you gotta be cashbacking it. come on now. cashback on everything you buy with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. still living with odors? get back in there and freshen instantly with new febreze air mist. febreze's new, finer mist floats longer in the air to fight even your toughest odors. so long stinky smells and hello amazing freshness.

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largest strike in u.s. history is brewing as contracted gushy asians between u.p.s. and it's 340,000 teamster union members stole the august 1st contract deadline draws nearer. the u.p.s. in the union, the international brotherhood of teamsters, have made some process of negotiations. u.p.s. has agreed to some heat safety demands. the country will install air conditioning new trucks in sorting facilities. both sides also came to an agreement a forced overtime. negotiations broke down over what is been the main sticking

point. higher pay for part-time workers. more than half of the union's 340,000 members that u.p.s. are part time workers. u.p.s. is emphasize that full-time truck drivers can make upward of $95,000 a year, the company is filing for the last year show that on average, employees make approximately $52,000 a year. while wages are competitive for the industry, at a time when talks of living and most of the countries that are record high, u.p.s. workers say that their wages are causing unnecessary suffering. particularly for the part time workers. according to teamster president, sean o'brien, he calls this poverty wages. according to u.p.s., it's all referred profits in 2020 2021 after the covid era boom in online shopping. the work is physically demanding. u.p.s. travers often work in the heat without air conditioning in their trucks. warehouse workers and or long hours, and sorting facilities often handle heavy package. as part and workers complain their work is incredibly inconsistent. u.p.s. maintains that flexible

part-time work is necessary to keep up with fluctuating seasonal demands. the teamsters of u.p.s. went on strike over remarkably similar contract demands and 1997 with more than 185,000 union members working, striking, for 15 days before reaching a deal. at the time, like today, u.p.s. is in the midst of increased profits, increased demands, and a steep increase in part time workers. this time around, the union may have more leverage. not only because of the incredible numbers of union member employees, but because of 97% of them are prepared to strike. they're united around the vision of their new teamsters president, sean o'brien, who assumed the position last year. the union is showing up with team leaders staging practice pickets and trains, importantly, u.p.s. pilots that are represented by an entirely different union. they have now vowed not to cross the picket line. u.p.s. currently handles about a quarter of all partial voter

unions in the united states, serving almost every corner of the country. handling daily amazon orders as well as strong business deliveries, lifesaving medication and medical supply deliveries. if a deal is not reached, hundreds of thousands of workers go on strike, it would likely be the costliest, most economically disruptive strike in more than 100 years in america. that's according to a michigan base economic think take. they study the economic impact of labor action. just a short ten day strike could cost the u.s. economy more than seven billion dollars. other estimates are much higher. silicon must express concern that a major strike de stabilize the economy into a recession. after the war break, i will speak to sean o'brien, the aforementioned president of the united brotherhood of teamsters. sters. ide in every pod. who needs that much more tide? (crashing sounds) everyone's gonna need more tide. it's a mess out there. that's why there's 85% more tide in every power pod. -see? -baby: ah. ♪

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on strike as early as next week

if they don't find a way to deal with u.p.s.. this could be one of the largest and costliest in american history. joining me now is the president of the union that represents the u.p.s. workers, the international brotherhood of teen. search sean o'brien. a fourth generation teamster self. sean, i apologize, i called to the united brotherhood of teamsters, i'm confusing u.p.s.'s name, of course, with teamsters, the international brotherhood of teamsters. i appreciate you being here. i tried to lay out the case as well as i could, it's a lot going on. tell me what i missed in terms of what's going on between the teamsters and u.p.s. right now. >> well i think you correctly made -- 95% of the contract on economic issues are done. we've made improvements on air conditioning, made improvements on protecting against excessive heat. we've secures the paid holiday. about 65 total improvements, all favorable for our members. then we get down to economics. that's where this broke down on

july 5th. >> what's your sense effect? i know you're not in the sense of predict dane, or putting your thumb on the, scale but you have a sense that there will be a strike? >> that's up to u.p.s.. i've been saying that the last couple of weeks because u.p.s. knows what our members want to need. especially in light of the earnings. they're giving stock options, 50%, hire they paid billions out to the stockholders. that's lucrative stock options for ceos in upper management. all the while, those folks have never touched, loaded, or delivered a package. especially through the pandemic where our members sacrifice themselves on a daily basis for supply chain solution as a priority, and join everyone has that they need. now it's time we reward those folks. >> comparing this to 1997 what some of the demands were similar, the big difference, of course, is this unjust time academy wherein. this thing that we all learned

during covid, right? most americans did really think about supply chain all that much. now we all know everything about supply chain. does the potential affect the economy, including the potential of a recession, does that come into your thinking at all? do you need to stay laser focused on the demands that you've got, and getting what you cannot u.p.s.? >> yes. we're focused on getting the best contract. obviously, i don't think anyone wants a recession. especially in light of supply chain and all the valuable teamsters. this will improve that. at the end of the day, we can't compromise any of our beliefs at this point. if we do go into a recession, i think we've all seen recessions -- but we can't compromise our position right now. i think we've got some tremendous leverage. i'm going to utilize that to get the best contract. >> do you share the view that a prolong teamster strike that u.p.s. could trigger a recession? >> i'm certain it could. i'm certain it could.

there's no doubt. i mean, we are, members deliver a 7% of gross national product. that would have a significant impact on the economy. like anything else, it's going to be short term pain for a long term gain for our members. >> what do people need to know about u.p.s. and its capacity? people say, if u.p.s. tracks, people will use fedex, in the u.s. postal service. what do they need to know why that's not going to work? >> well it's not going to work because one thing u.p.s. is good at is providing our members, providing the best service that u.p.s. has the infrastructure to handle more and more volume. fedex in the post office don't have a governmental structure, and that's good for us in a way because, like anything else, we're going to try to avoid a strike, but at the end of the day, u.p.s., they don't give our members what they, what they're going to cause the strike. volume will eventually come back. i would just say, keep the faith. let us do our thing. hopefully --

if, not u.p.s. -- >> what difference does it make to you? or how much does that help you that the pilots union has said that they won't cross the picket line? >> well i think it's great. in the labor movement right now, especially in this tremendous solidarity and support. the support of the pilots not crossing picket lines, they go for their help us to get the strongest contract. teamsters don't cross picket lines, either so a pilots have an issue, or anyone else, definitely support them as well. >> in the past, in, fact in the recent past when there is going to be a worker strike, the white house got involved in. this there was a letter that was sent by 250 organizations, including the chamber of commerce to the white house, to ask them to get involved in brokering a deal. you, tell me what your position is on this. i know that you in the teamsters have asked the president not to get involved, not to intervene if there is a strike. do you oppose the administration being involved in the negotiations before

there's a strike? >> yeah, absolutely. we can handle around business. we don't need any dimension for the white house or anyone else. i've been saying this, when i grew, up of two people are having a disagreement on the street when you had nothing to do with that, just keep walking it all work itself. that we feel that this is our position right now. look, as long as u.p.s. comes to the table ready to give a deal, give remembers what they want, we won't have to worry about a strike, and or any intervention from anyone. >> u.p.s. tells me that one of the things they hold and greatest seam is their long-standing good relationship with the teamsters. they feel like that counts for something right now. what's your response? >> look relationships are good, i mean some days are, good sundays they're bad, right? right, now we're not in a good spot. they do the right thing, than the relationship can start to be what it was before. look, our relationship, our most important relationship to

us is -- we're cordless of weather u.p.s. -- we have to represent the people who allow us to leave them. >> sean, i appreciate you talking to me. i would like to offer you a standing invitation, obviously, at the strike it's close or happens, i'd like to bring you back on the show to continue this conversation. thank you for being with us this morning. >> absolutely, thank you very much, appreciate you. >> john o'brien as the president of the international brotherhood of teamsters. right after the break, hundreds of thousands of protesters across israel, in opposition to netanyahu's judicial overhaul plan. we're going to jerusalem after this. this my a1c was up here; now, it's down with rybelsus®. his a1c? it's down with rybelsus®. my doctor told me rybelsus® lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill and that people taking rybelsus® lost more weight. i got to my a1c goal and lost some weight too. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't take rybelsus®

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we speak in israel as parliament is getting started on voting tomorrow and netanyahu's plan to weaken the nation's supreme court. despite blistering heat, thousands of protesters march to jerusalem last night. they're expected today outside of parliaments. a last-ditch effort to stop the

bill. more than 100 of israel's former security chiefs have fasteners, and senior diplomats have signed a letter demanding that netanyahu a mediately halt this legislation, while thousands of military reservists have said that they will not report for duty. this all comes to netanyahu was taken to hospital overnight and given a pacemaker due to an irregular heartbeat. this is the second time he's been in hospital and as many weeks. he suspected to be released from hospital tomorrow morning. joining me now from jerusalem is nbc's raf sanchez. he's in the middle of this protest, in a little hard to hear. we're going to give it a shot. raf, what's going on where you are? >> well, ali, as you said, we are in the middle of a noisy protest in the center of jerusalem. these demonstrators are in front of the israeli supreme court. the institution they're trying to protect for what they say is netanyahu's plan, it would weaken the supreme court and weaken democracy. as you, said this is really a

last-ditch effort. this crowd is out in big numbers, they're boisterous, they are determines. netanyahu says that he has the votes in parliament, and after six months of stopping and starting, this is really political prices is now seeing the rubber meeting the road. netanyahu plans to begin votes on the first part of his plan tonight. he says that these votes will probably go through until tomorrow. there may be final votes as late as tomorrow afternoon. while there are last-minute efforts to try to reach some kind of political compromise here, netanyahu appears to be pushing ahead. that is despite the fact, ali, as you said, he was rushed to hospital overnights to be fitted with a pacemaker after suffering from arrhythmia. and irregular heartbeat. this is the second time in a week that the israeli prime minister, who 73 years old, generally thought to be in good

health, has been taken to hospital. he says that he is determined to push forward despite all of that. ali, if there is one variable here that might change his mind, it is the fact that this political crisis is in real danger of turning into a security crisis. last, night some 10,000 israeli military reservists said that they would stop showing up for duty as this legislation goes through. that is especially damaging in the israeli air force, ali. has some, some 50% of pilots and some squadrons, are reservists. this is as opposed to active duty pilots. they take part in all the missions over syria, gaza, lebanon, as the active duty pilots and the chief of the israeli defense forces is warning that the military is already suffering damage to its readiness. if these pilots don't show up, that could turn into a major,

major crisis for israel's military. ali. >> raf, thank you. i know that was a tough one to get through with all that noise, but it's a important story in a ladder there covering this. we'll stay with you as the story continues to unfold. pcs, rob sanchez, in jerusalem. coming up next, what to several of trump's former aides have in common with cousin greg from hbo's succession? i'll explain, next. i'll explain, next check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature. subway's now slicing their deli meats fresh. that's why the new titan turkey is proferred by this football pro. and proferred by this football pro who actually uses her feet. and if we profer it, we know you'll prefer it too.

i use my feet. have you seen me scramble? meet three students all learning to save and spend their money with chase. freedom for kids. hungry? thank you, chef. control for parents. nice. one bank for both. chase. make more of what's yours. this is american infrastructure, a prime target for cyberattacks. but the same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪ i was told my small business wouldn't qualify for an erc tax refund. you should get a second opinion from innovation refunds at no upfront cost. sometimes you need a second opinion. all these walls gotta go! ah ah ah! i'd love a second opinion. take the first step to see if your small business qualifies. take a look at all these faces.

you may not recognize most of them, but they have something in common. this year's william russell, he's a trump aide who was with the former president on january 6th, and recently testified before the grand jury that's investigating trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. this guy, you may have, seen this is walt nauta. he's another trump aide who planned not guilty and the mar-a-lago classified documents case. here we have nick luna, trump's former personal assistance in

the white house who reportedly testified before the grand jury earlier this year. mr. john mcentee, he's a former trump aide who is involved in crucial election-related meetings in 2020. he is also reportedly testified to special counsel. this guy, michael dhillon ordo, he is a former italian mobsters for the notorious can be no crime family. nothing to do with trump. he ultimately cooperated with authorities and dismantled the crime family. same we'll double, you know him, he's a notorious mob stir who played a significant role and putting john gaudy behind bars. lastly, let's not forget cousin greg, from hbo's succession. also nothing to do with trump. although fictional, greg's character assumes a witness to incriminating conversation. that is what ties all of these faces together. there are relatively low profile status, granting them access to inner circles of power. their ability to fly under the radar allowed them to be present in the back from

meetings and confidential discussions. the former trump aides, and particular, hold valuable information do, in some cases, explicitly, to their proximity to the former president. just like in racketeering cases involving criminal gangs, prosecutors work from the bottom up to reach the king pin. special counsel, jack, smith in similar fashion, is speaking to a low level players who were present during key events in his investigation of trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. smith extensive experience in investigating international war criminals, and criminal gang activity in new york, and public corruption in elections related probes of the justice department, make him perfectly positioned to investigate trump. each former aide subpoenaed by smith's office provides critical piece of the puzzle. together, they could reveal a coordinated effort to undermine the 2020 election. at the center of it all stands donald trump himself. on thursday, william russell, the first face of this i pointed out, became the latest former aide to testify before the grand jury.

russell was with trump for much of the day on january six. he's previously provided valuable testimony related to the events that unfolded that day. i'm joined now by christine greenberg, a former federal prosecutor who served over a decade of the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of new york. their deputy chief of the criminal division, also with the wise man, he served as the district attorney in the eastern district over a decade, where he prosecuted numerous members of the crime families including the aforementioned stanley the bowl bravado. welcome to both of you. it's great to have you here. i know a lot of you will be unhappy they are here because they like your -- on social media a lot better. thanks for being with us. i know it's a bit tongue-in-cheek, obviously, that all these people are on the extreme together, but there's a point. the point being that one wonders why a lot of these junior people are being called into the grand jury. it's because they may just be able to cooperate somebody

saying something that something else knows, or that they may have heard something that no one else is testifying to yet. what do you think? >> certainly we've been seeing cassidy hutchison is a perfect example of that. i think one thing that is similar, if you leave aside that the crimes are extremely difficult, you can't compare someone murdering 19 people with what's going on here. they're very different. the issue of how do you get somebody to cooperate is something that is kind of similar in the organized crime cases. there are ways that organized crime has to make sure that, in terms of murder, there was an oath of -- in this case, in a public corruption case, there are also significant challenges. there is the issue of -- where people think about, i don't really need to flip because i'm mike apart and down the road. the former president is also really good at threatening people with directly and

indirectly, publicizing what they're doing or not doing. this, that is one area where i think if you had experience and organized crime cases, and in public cases, it can be very useful. >> makes me wonder, if you are one of these people, one of these lower level people, you have information, and they suspect you have information because you were in the room where it happened. why these folks who do not have a lot of money? why do they wish to resist the federal government, why they don't give it all? i think and you said some of it, maybe there is this idea that there's loyalty, there might be a part of down the, route they might have a job with donald trump, or you can exist in the world that doesn't involve donald trump. tell me why it's not obvious. we'll not it does not appear to be cooperating at the moment. >> right, you've seen what nauta, he has an attorney who is also representing lots of out witnesses in trump world. that attorney is being paid for by trump. the odds of will not actually

cooperating against the former president to go down dramatically when you have that calculus. i also think you can look at cousin greg on succession, the question he asked says what will happen to me? will you take care of me? i think that that is the question that a lot of these low-level aides are going to be asked again. i think that in trump world, there may be, whether it's implicit or explicit, this idea that if i get the presidency, i will make this go away. i will either pardon you, or we will drop the case entirely. trying to stay in that, trying to stay in his good graces because if you're not, look at what the consequences are. look at the kinds of things he's been posting this week against, you know, it's really dark. there is a fear there, much like with the mob boss, that if you get on his bad side, bad things could happen to you. >> again, the exception been sammy the ball because he was an incidental to anything. for the rest of them, it's

often the testimony that you hear about from people who overheard something, for whom the principles didn't take seriously. there are smaller players. everyone's got a body, man assistant, or driver, or something of that nature. are these people, do they hold critical testimony here, or is this cooperation? >> it can be truly critical. every case i've done, junior people, incidental people, a lot of times people who the principles don't even think about. there is sort of there at the background. they can be really compelling as to what is happened. sometimes, even if it's just small pieces, it can be with compelling, and it can cooperate somebody like, for instance, on michael cohen. michael cohen has tons of baggage. if you have a lower level person who was in the room and can cooperate small pieces that, that it can be really compelling too. >> hold on a second, we'll take

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federal prosecutors. one of the things that i want to understand a little bit is these characters that we're talking about, who have been seeing, testifying, or talking to the grand jury, why are these junior characters

involved so far down the road? we, are any day now, expecting an indictment, possibly. why are we still talking to junior possibly incidental people? >> it sounds like at least with one of the witnesses that was in the grand jury on thursday, william russell, this may be his third time in the grand jury. what that tells me is that they actually are far down the road, and they're tying up some loose ends here. they are, they clearly have, at this, point of prosecution memo, there is a draft indictment. they are just finalizing what that presentation is before they ask the grandeur devote. >> andrew, i guess part of that is because some of this may become testimony and court. they've gotta make sure that everything is but, not that everything matches everything else? >> yeah, they could've learned something new and they want to ask questions about that. it's also worth remembering just how quickly chat smith has moved along. this is a very widespread conspiracy. meaning there are lots of people to talk to. it's just not surprising to me given the time clock that time

pressure that they, there will be this many people that were here and going into the grand jury. that sort of high level, low levels, medium levels because i think they're trying to work really quickly. >> i want to explore with you this concept of different people saying the same thing. a friend, michael cohen, who had some baggage. he wanted to understand what you meant by why would that be beneficial to somebody else? they've set something to learn that somebody else. that >> when your prosecutor, one of the things you do when you closes you talk about the ways in which a cooperating witnesses cooperated. you talk about all the evidence. other witnesses, other documents. and michael cohen's case, just to take one example, he has admitted that he committed perjury. he did that, he said, towards the presidents, then president, donald trump. there is also significant cooperation, so with anyone who has gone back, whether it's

michael cohen, whether it's sand me, or any, what you need to be able to tell the jury, this is how you know that he is telling the truth. look at the other evidence. >> how does anything that jacks mitt worrying about right now, in the people he's getting to talk to him, affect the georgia case? there may be overlap, there might be people who have similar stories to tell, or who are in similar rooms, or listening to similar conversations. i'm told that it does matter, that what those, what that same person says into different places matters a lot. >> yes, it does. this is a really unusual situation where you have federal and state prosecutors looking at the same course of conduct, potentially the same targets, at the same time. usually on the beginning of an investigation, there is sort of this david and goliath turf battle that will happen with federal and state prosecutors, were a lot of times the federal prosecutors will say, come on, be a special prosecutor on our, case you can be a part of it, you can maybe delay your case,

or shut it down entirely. that didn't happen here because, willis got to, work world of pursley, vantage aged not. where doj unofficially was fearful, fani willis was fearless. she built this investigation for two years. the worst thing that donald trump could've done was announce his candidacy when he did. that led to jack smith being a pointed as special counsel, and he has been investigating with gusto. it seems that he is caught up to her. now, they're both racing to the finish line here. you know, they are looking at a lot of the same witnesses, what prosecutor wants other teams of investigators and prosecutors questioning their witnesses without knowing what they're saying? they don't. so there has to be some coordination. if you bring, in for example, georgia secretary of state, brad rock his burger, you're going to want to know what he said to fani willis for us, before jack smith is put into a

grand jury. you want to ensure that there is consistency and inconsistencies that you are picking up. you want to understand what the intentions of people are, of the credibility. i think that it is a tough situation, a delicate situation. i believe that they must be communicating, they must be sharing some information where they are looking at the same kinds of witnesses and documents as they get to these final stages. >> to a lot of our viewers, they might say this is gray, the data with these two cases. someone's going to get donald trump. is there, if your jacks mitt, is there something you're worried about here that i don't want these two cases moving forward at the same time? >> christy's point is that you definitely have to coordinate. just take another example, if you have the victim, you really don't put this through this process twice. you want to do it once, a real courtesy, we don't wanna re-victimize them. the reason that this, although it is, i agree with christiane, an unusual case, the reason

that there is a reason to do this is that state charges, even though i think that they will be a subset of the federal charges, those can stick if there is a federal pardon, or if somebody just tells the federal case, we're going this way. in other, words any republican who wins the presidency can tell the department of justice, drop all federal cases. you don't even have to go to the pardon, they can just tell the attorney general to stop. that does not apply to state charges. by having these two, you do have that ability to close up into account. >> thanks to both of you. this is been a great discussion. i appreciated, as always. thanks to both of you for being here. christie greenberg and alan joo weizmann, both federal prosecutors. that does it for me, thanks for watching. catherine bakr next saturday and sunday morning from 10 am to noon. don't forget, though she is also available as a podcast. subscribe and listen for free wherever you get your podcast. yes i do wear that best every time we broadcast. and what we are, jen psaki starts right now. e, jen psaki starts right now

>> if we weren't sure before, the events of this week left no doubt. the backdrop of the 24 campaign will be donald trump's many legal battles. judge aileen cannon circles a day on the calendar for the classified documents trial, as trump receives a target letter from jack smith on his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. former maryland governor larry hogan has been more outspoken than most republicans when it comes to the former president, and he is coming up first. plus, i've got a few thoughts about rfk junior after house republicans platform to his dangerous conspiracy theories this week on -- capitol hill. stacey plaskett is the ranking democrat on the committee heard's testimony and she joins me live. later you walk in the park with congressman jamie raskin. we talked shakespeare, battling cancer, and how he coped with tragedy while fighting for democracy.